Terry Marks-Tarlow, PhD, is a clinical psychologist. She is author of Mirrors of the Mind: Psychotherapist as Artist; Clinical Intuition in Psychotherapy; Awakening Clinical Intuition; Psyche’s Veil: Psychotherapy, Fractals, and Complexity; and Creativity Inside Out. She is coeditor of two anthologies – Simultaneity: Temporal Structures and Observer Perspectives; and A Fractal Epistemology for a Scientific Psychology.

In this conversation, she explores the profound implications of autopoiesis and the mathematics of Laws of Form. She discusses how living systems maintain their boundaries while engaging with paradox, recursion, and the role of consciousness in creating distinctions. According to her, these ideas bridge biology, psychology, and mysticism, pointing toward the interconnection of all life and the generative power of paradox.

00:00 Introduction

01:49 Defining autopoiesis

04:44 Consciousness as primary

07:02 Spencer Brown’s laws of form

13:20 Boundaries and distinctions

19:06 Paradox, time, and feedback

23:05 Structural openness and functional closure

29:38 Ouroboros and higher consciousness

40:01 Varela, buddhism, and embodied mind

51:06 Conclusion

(Recorded on September 12, 2025)

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Published on October 13, 2025